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SWGB Heaven » Forums » Star Wars Universe » Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread (SPOILERS INSIDE)
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Topic Subject:Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread (SPOILERS INSIDE)
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Gen_Rhys_Dallows
Jedi Knight
posted 12-13-17 01:48 PM EDT (US)         
The Last Jedi is only a couple of days away from release. As such, a new thread has been opened for discussion of the film and surrounding materials, spoilers included. The previous thread opened by Keno is to remain spoiler-free. Violation of this will result in punishment as deemed appropriate by the moderation staff.

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jssf1992
Clone Trooper
posted 01-26-18 04:52 PM EDT (US)     91 / 183       
there's a strong implication that Holdo's plan would have worked and Resistance lives would have been saved
Oh? Let me grab something from the last post I made here . . .

Um, that would have happened anyway. The slicer may have sped up the process, but if the personnel of the First Order fleet were any sort of competent (which, they may not be, but when talking strategy one should assume) they would have had eyes, sensors, etc. watching for anything unusual happening with the enemy ship. And we know they could have found the transports because they did just that to verify the story.

Did you miss that, had they actually gone with Poe's plan, it would have worked? Not for the reason they expected, but it would have? If Holdo had, at the very least, afforded Poe a minimum of respect instead of twisting Leia's words to insult him, they could have actually worked together to make something that would have actually worked correctly?

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Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 01-26-18 05:02 PM EDT (US)     92 / 183       
Twenty years? That doesn't sound right. That would mean that Kylo Ren turned to the dark side twenty years ago, and that doesn't seem correct. Could be wrong though...
I threw out a random number. Ben was clearly in his early to mid teens when his uncle tried to murder him on account of having some concerns.
Not convinced by that. Saving the horse things was a means to an end - it worked too, the police guys were distracted by the rest of the herd. And I can't say this for sure, but if they got recaptured because they were being slowed down by a handful of children, wouldn't you call them fools then? There's being "heartless fools" and there's being pragmatic and sensible about one's odds - I'm more inclined to believe that the latter applies to Rose and Finn.
A) We've yet to see Finn act in a pragmatic way under any circumstances.
B) Rose spent an inordinate amount of time expressing sentiments that amount to "animal ownership is slavery!!!"
C) Rose was clearly very pleased that they were saving the Space Horses.
D) Both Finn and Rose seem the naïve OT hero types, not the new pragmatic Jyn Erso/whatsisface Rogue 1 here types.

So completely aside from the fact that everything that happened on Canto Bite was stupid, that scene was particularly stupid.
I'm also a bit surprised that events which advanced the plot are just "redundant". If Poe hadn't hatched his hare-brained plan with Finn and Rose, there's a strong implication that Holdo's plan would have worked and Resistance lives would have been saved - the code breaker plot line is the culmination of that, and leads into the third act. Would you prefer it if the story had just ended with the Resistance getting to Crait safe and sound without being detected? I get the feeling that you wouldn't be happy with that either...
Advanced the plot in what way? It was an hour-long side trip that added nothing to the film. That entire segment could have been cut simply by letting Maz give the heroes a macguffin. Would that have been good storytelling? Not really, but that's never stopped Star Wars from abusing the crap out of macguffins before, and it would be better than a boring hour-long diversion in the middle of a crisis. Oh, and God forbid we miss the opportunity for Captain Phasma to have three pointless minutes of screentime.
I mean sure, Canto Bight was clunky and a little too long, but redundant? That's harsh. It also opens up the door on that point about people profiting off the war and others just supporting the highest bidder, and although these points weren't dealt with with much nuance, it's the first time a Star Wars film has attempted to do that as far as I recall. So frankly I'm happy that an effort has even been made.
The prequels got a little political. TLJ crossed the line into smugly, sanctimoniously preachy. And as I said in my summary, I just love when rich corporate executives get hypocritically self-righteous about attacking rich corporate executives. Hollywood just loves to play the "wealth is evil" card while raking in millions of dollars.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
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"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
Xicon
Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 01-26-18 06:49 PM EDT (US)     93 / 183       
"Holdo's plan wouldn't have worked" is speculation that flies directly in the face of clear textual evidence. The film specifically states that the escape pods were too small to be detected on the First Order's scanners unless they were specifically scanning for them, which they weren't... until they learned of the plan, which they did because Poe immediately blabbed about it once informed.

You can contort yourself into all sorts of weird shapes to try and make Holdo a villain and Poe a valiant, misunderstood hero, but the text is very, very clear: Holdo's plan would have worked, were it not for Poe's brashness, and she was very right to not inform him immediately. Which, by the way, as his commanding officer, she was under no obligation to do at any point. It's almost like there's something about her that makes people treat her differently than any other vice admiral or commanding officer character, I wonder what that could be?

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 01-26-18 08:44 PM EDT (US)     94 / 183       
In an astonishing turn of events, I agree with Xicon except for the implications of sexism. I think one can make a case for that, but I think the fact that she's dressed like a débutante rather than military officer is an equally valid explanation.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 01-26-18 08:56 PM EDT (US)     95 / 183       
You know... I really, really get chafed by the whole, "Anyone who doesn't like the movie is a misogynist neckbeard who hates the idea of womyn in charge!" Sets my teeth on edge and runs up my spine like steel nails on a chalkboard.

...But given the number of people bleating about her f**king hair color, I have to agree with Xicon that there is a horrific and nauseating number of people who are angry that a lady with pink hair slapped down Poe Dameron. That being said... I don't believe anyone here holds that neolithic view here, and I would be very, very appreciative if, in the course of this discussion, we could avoid accusing the people here of being so backward.

But I totally hate the evening gown. She's a vice admiral; she should be wearing an admiral's uniform.

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jssf1992
Clone Trooper
posted 01-26-18 10:05 PM EDT (US)     96 / 183       
"Holdo's plan wouldn't have worked" is speculation that flies directly in the face of clear textual evidence. The film specifically states that the escape pods were too small to be detected on the First Order's scanners unless they were specifically scanning for them
I don't recall it being said that way (only that they assumed the First Order wasn't looking), but I have only seen the film once and it was a month ago. Of course, I still don't think there's a good reason that the Empire wouldn't be looking for escape pods anyway, but as Zaarin said before, that requires the writers to make the imperials competent.
You can contort yourself into all sorts of weird shapes to try and make Holdo a villain and Poe a valiant, misunderstood hero,
. . . well that's certainly not what I meant to imply. I think Poe was an honest attempt at flawed character that went too far, and Holdo was just . . . poorly written and planned.
and she was very right to not inform him immediately.
Why? I really can't think of any negative consequences of this course of action.
Which, by the way, as his commanding officer, she was under no obligation to do at any point.
I would personally take issue with any leadership style that permits lying to the people that one is supposed to be helping.

From a practical standpoint though, Poe was actually right, the rest of resistance should know that there's a plan to help morale (which definitely would have been terrible at the time), and his attitude (even if it had been as bad as later), rank, or recent reprimand doesn't change that. Further, saying there was no plan could only hurt morale, making lying about it actually harmful.


Now, yes. I am biased. I am *very* anti-authoritarian. It shows. Any time, in fiction or reality, that I see a similar situation, I automatically am against authority. Luke and Leia got a pass/better shot because they were prior main characters, but otherwise, Holdo got pretty much the same response as any other character like her, she wouldn't even be worth talking about if it wasn't for the bizarreness of her character being in a rebbellion.
text
Okay, so you mention the text and (if I'm understanding you right) how it intends the story/characters to be seen, and do think that's interesting. Holdo is definitely meant to be seen positively by the end of the movie, especially since she has one of the show-stopping scenes. However, I do think the audience is set up by the movie (and TFA) to identify more with Poe, especially by the time that Holdo is introduced. Do you think the writers intended to flip this and something went wrong (like Holdo's limited screen time)? Or maybe I'm just wrong?

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Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 01-26-18 10:37 PM EDT (US)     97 / 183       
Now, yes. I am biased. I am *very* anti-authoritarian. It shows.
Yes. Yes, it does. From a command structure point of view, Holdo did nothing wrong in regards to Poe. That being said, I do agree that she was poorly written. We're told she's brilliant and that her plan will work, but we're not given much reason to believe it, nor or we really given a reliable source (IMO she should have been introduced before Leia was taken out of action, as Leia would have been a more credible source for the audience).
However, I do think the audience is set up by the movie (and TFA) to identify more with Poe
Are they? Poe gets five minutes of screentime and zero character development in TFA. TLJ opens with him making some horrible decisions, then (rightfully) getting demoted and chewed out by a character who already has the audience's support and respect, Leia. I never sympathized with Poe for one second in TLJ. He wasn't even the endearing kind of stupid like Han. He was just stupid.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
jssf1992
Clone Trooper
posted 01-26-18 10:58 PM EDT (US)     98 / 183       
Well, "more" is relative. I also don't think they did as well with him as they thought they did. That said, I do think the audience is still given more reason to like him than Holdo. If nothing else, both movies intended him to seem a friendly guy to his allies, which Holdo doesn't show any of until far after the conflict between the two.

There's also that, unfortunately, some of how Poe is in TLJ fits a rather obvious heroic cliche at the start of the movie ( friendly, skilled, but reckless and rebbellious) which could help him slide into favor. (unless of course you recognize it)

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Flying Ace
Clone Trooper
(id: Lord Vader672)
posted 01-27-18 00:09 AM EDT (US)     99 / 183       
given the number of people bleating about her f**king hair color,
First off, thanks for making me have to include THAT in my quote, ya dick

Second, the only thing I don't like about her hair is that it gives me Hunger Games vibes. Am I the only one? Other than that I was hoping I'd hear about a T-Rex showing up

What was YOUR ME3 ending: Merge with Helios, Illuminati, or Tracer Tong?
"I feel like I just watched Dwayne Johnson beat a small disabled child. Except the disabled child is really an infant clone of Hitler. It's so painful to watch...but so glorious." - Cheapy
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Queen Jenny the Mediocre
Clone Trooper
(id: neo222)
posted 01-27-18 04:36 AM EDT (US)     100 / 183       
I'm also a bit surprised that events which advanced the plot are just "redundant". If Poe hadn't hatched his hare-brained plan with Finn and Rose, there's a strong implication that Holdo's plan would have worked and Resistance lives would have been saved - the code breaker plot line is the culmination of that, and leads into the third act. Would you prefer it if the story had just ended with the Resistance getting to Crait safe and sound without being detected? I get the feeling that you wouldn't be happy with that either...
No, I'd like a plot that was less tedious and simplistic than a cat and mouse chase over two hours (or one hour, minus Canto whatever it's called). You know, something actually interesting which further develops the story. I have nothing against Canto whatsitcalled as a setting, but given the story in the entire film, it did amount to being pointless, even if it did bring up the fact that people profit from war (something which could no doubt have been touched upon in a scene which actually mattered).

I could move to a small town, and become a waitress...

[This message has been edited by Princess Jenny_chan (edited 01-27-2018 @ 04:39 AM).]

Xicon
Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 01-27-18 04:25 PM EDT (US)     101 / 183       
Okay, so you mention the text and (if I'm understanding you right) how it intends the story/characters to be seen, and do think that's interesting. Holdo is definitely meant to be seen positively by the end of the movie, especially since she has one of the show-stopping scenes. However, I do think the audience is set up by the movie (and TFA) to identify more with Poe, especially by the time that Holdo is introduced. Do you think the writers intended to flip this and something went wrong (like Holdo's limited screen time)? Or maybe I'm just wrong?
They absolutely want you to empathize and identify with Poe throughout the film, which is why moments like Leia demoting him and stunning him are played partially for laughs: they're moments meant to be unexpected. We're meant to think Leia would be appreciative to Poe for destroying the enemy ship, so when she demotes him instead, it's a jarring clash of expectation and reality. But the movie agrees with Leia; the point of this divide between expectations and reality is to develop the idea that Poe is a brash actor with a hero complex rather than a smart tactician. Yes, he had a cool moment of destroying the ship in a really gripping action scene - that's why we, the audience, were on board with him! He did a cool thing, what a hero! But it led to a lot of unnecessary losses, and so Leia reprimands him for it.

Holdo is the same. We're meant to agree with Poe - is there no plan? Are we just gonna die? We need to take action! This justifies the side mission Rose and Finn go on (a critically important stretch of the film that I sincerely cannot fathom thinking is redundant, half of the thematic core of the movie is tied up there), as well as Poe's dramatic mutiny. But once again, when the plan is revealed, we're meant to realize - as Poe does - that his view of things was skewed. Holdo had a plan and was executing it, and what Poe should have done was trust his superiors rather than try to play the hero.

This movie is about learning that there are times to fight, and times to retreat and fight another day. Poe is always raring to go and looking for a fight, and that gets him and the Resistance at large into trouble a number of times. The movie endeavors at every point to trick you into agreeing with him, so it can dress you down after the fact to prove the point.

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 01-27-18 04:47 PM EDT (US)     102 / 183       
First off, I want to reiterate that I agree with everything you said, Xicon, except the bit about Canto Bite, which may have been "thematic" but also was mindbogglingly boring. However...
This movie is about learning that there are times to fight, and times to retreat and fight another day. Poe is always raring to go and looking for a fight, and that gets him and the Resistance at large into trouble a number of times. The movie endeavors at every point to trick you into agreeing with him, so it can dress you down after the fact to prove the point.
I agree that this is what the movie did, but is a swashbuckling action flick--and let's be honest, Star Wars has always been Dumas in space--really the venue for this sort of thing? A part of me really likes the idea of taking Star Wars in a more mature direction (even if I think the execution was middling), but I don't think that's what your average Star Wars fan wants. I've even seen more than one complain that Poe got punished "for acting like a Star Wars hero," which is an argument that has merit (even if I think Poe lacks the credentials to make me, at least, like him or sympathize with him).

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
Xicon
Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 01-27-18 09:02 PM EDT (US)     103 / 183       
Any and everywhere is the right place for this. Movies, even big blockbuster films, are art, and art should constantly be aiming to make its audience better as people. THE LAST JEDI is a Star Wars movie that deconstructs Star Wars movies, challenging its conception of heroism with Poe, challenging its conception of the Jedi masters with Luke, challenging the black and white morality of the franchise with its morally bankrupt war profiteering industry on Canto Bight -- everything. It's taking a sledgehammer to what Star Wars fans think Star Wars is.

That's why a lot of Star Wars fans hate it, but it's exactly why I love it. It's not about giving Star Wars fans what they want, but about what they need: a franchise willing to go new places and in new directions instead of retreading the same basic plot beats ad infinitum.
Canto Bite, which may have been "thematic" but also was mindbogglingly boring.
I disagree, but that is a far more defensible and sensible position than "Canto Bight was redundant and unnecessary." It served a clear, important purpose in the broader story and theme of the film.

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat

[This message has been edited by Xicon (edited 01-27-2018 @ 09:04 PM).]

Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 01-27-18 09:41 PM EDT (US)     104 / 183       
Any and everywhere is the right place for this. Movies, even big blockbuster films, are art, and art should constantly be aiming to make its audience better as people. THE LAST JEDI is a Star Wars movie that deconstructs Star Wars movies, challenging its conception of heroism with Poe, challenging its conception of the Jedi masters with Luke, challenging the black and white morality of the franchise with its morally bankrupt war profiteering industry on Canto Bight -- everything. It's taking a sledgehammer to what Star Wars fans think Star Wars is.
And I loved that it did this, just like I loved KotOR2 for doing this--I just didn't love the way it did it. I really do approve of Star Wars going down a darker, more mature path. While I think Rogue One story was nonexistent and its two leads, Jyn and Cassian, horrible characters, I approved of its decision to go grittier. It's also something I liked about TLJ. I just don't think either movie implemented the concept effectively. Plus I'm placing bets "Rey's parents are nobody" gets retconned by JJ "Spectacle and Drama" Abrams.

But I can definitely see why the general audience, expecting Dumas in space, hated it. And since Disney loves money more than it loves art or even pushing its liberal agendas, I expect the franchise to back off and go back to fluffy swashbuckling, unfortunately.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
jssf1992
Clone Trooper
posted 01-27-18 11:48 PM EDT (US)     105 / 183       
The movie endeavors at every point to trick you into agreeing with him, so it can dress you down after the fact to prove the point.
I more or less agree with you on Poe (I do think his flaws are not remotely subtle and thus, don't see him as a heroic figure), but while I do think they intended Holdo to be a proper . .. uh, counterpoint to him, but that the writing failed to do so. Mostly because, due to her handling of the situation, and lying to Poe, she has partial responsibility for how the situation played out.

And frankly, that really is down to writing, which doesn't treat the lie as something wrong. If she were to actually have a reason to have done so, like say, being established as a little paranoid beforehand, then at least I could understand why she did it. I still wouldn't like her, but I would at least understand her.
This movie is about learning that there are times to fight, and times to retreat and fight another day.
Eh, that could have been Poe's character arc (and initially might have been), but it gets bent out of shape by mixing it with authority issues. Otherwise, maybe some of that from Finn, but I don't really see that in anything else without really stretching.
THE LAST JEDI is a Star Wars movie that deconstructs Star Wars movies
. . . I think it's pretty well in line with previous themes of the series actually (but there's enough difference I don't consider it a retread). Poe is reckless and that's bad (both Anakin and Luke dealt with this), Luke makes the same mistakes his masters made (though he becomes more bitter), and the series has dealt with morally gray characters (though perhaps not with grace) namely Anakin/Vader.

There's deviation, sure, but I don't think it's enough to call it a deconstruction.
challenging the black and white morality of the franchise with its morally bankrupt war profiteering industry on Canto Bight
I thought that was actually pretty black and white, the war proffiteers and upper class were probably meant to be seen as straight evil. That said . . .
It served a clear, important purpose in the broader story and theme of the film.
I might actually agree with this, though maybe not for the same reason. I see Finn and Rose working with the code-breaker they did instead of the one they were sent for as a metaphor for willingness to compromise one's morals. This could be applied to not only Finn and Rose, but also Luke, Poe, Rey (maybe), Kylo, and potentially a better written Holdo. I do think that is actually new, and a good thing for the series to explore, but don't think it did so all that well.

Currently listening to: Emil Karma
Tann and Reath part two progress
Completely finished: one
Only Narrative needed: five
In progress: two
To be made: six
Xicon
Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 01-28-18 00:52 AM EDT (US)     106 / 183       
But I can definitely see why the general audience, expecting Dumas in space, hated it. And since Disney loves money more than it loves art or even pushing its liberal agendas, I expect the franchise to back off and go back to fluffy swashbuckling, unfortunately.
I don't think this is supported by any of the actual data; the general audience loved this movie. It's a vocal minority of online Star Wars fans mad about it. The movie still made over $600 million domestic, for a multiplier of 2.8 - very strong, indicating consistent demand/positive word of mouth. It received an "A" CinemaScore, a metric evaluating enthusiasm of opening day audiences. The Rotten Tomatoes user score is 49%, but that's anonymous and entirely open with no actual polling method being used. It is thus susceptible to brigading, and I think that's exactly what happened there. The real test of audience enthusiasm will be Episode IX, and how well it performs on its opening weekend (opening weekends of sequels largely being referenda on the first film, with some of the marketing of the second film tying into that).

Disney, for what it's worth, seems absurdly pleased with THE LAST JEDI to the point that they've asked Johnson back to write and direct an entirely new trilogy. I think this is the new operating procedure going forward. Also, Disney pushing liberal agendas is hilarious, as they've been agonizingly slow to increase any of the representation in their films. They still haven't had a female superhero movie, their princess line is still regressive (even if the films themselves are often far better about this, as MOANA was), and even the suggestion of LGBTQ characters in their films gets swatted down quickly.

Poe is definitely gay though and I am HERE FOR IT
lying to Poe
She never lied to Poe. She declined to share information with him, and instructed him to follow orders.
Mostly because, due to her handling of the situation, and lying to Poe, she has partial responsibility for how the situation played out.
In what way is she responsible for the way things transpired? Her plan was working, would have worked had Poe not revealed it to Finn (thus justifying her reasoning for staying quiet about the plan), and even when it went south she managed to stop it from completely failing by sacrificing herself. She handled that situation more or less perfectly.
If she were to actually have a reason to have done so, like say, being established as a little paranoid beforehand, then at least I could understand why she did it. I still wouldn't like her, but I would at least understand her.
The very first conversation she has with Poe sets up that she doesn't trust him because it's hotshot pilots like him that get people killed. Unless you're looking for that distrust to be a general character trait rather than specific to her opinion of Poe (which is, I think, unnecessary, and tied more into people's hagiographic love of Poe than in it being good characterization for Holdo), I don't know how better that could have been set up.
Eh, that could have been Poe's character arc (and initially might have been), but it gets bent out of shape by mixing it with authority issues. Otherwise, maybe some of that from Finn, but I don't really see that in anything else without really stretching.
Leia says it a number of times, it's the actual text of Poe's character arc (his difference of opinion with Holdo is entirely down to his desire to stand and fight instead of non-combatively run away. The "authority issues" arise out of the impulse to fight versus retreat), and it's also the actual text of Finn's character arc (he starts out wanting to run, but is reprimanded and learns that there are some things worth fighting for; he then takes that too far, and the film ends with him having realized that fighting for a cause sometimes means retreating). Jenny keeps tossing around "cat and mouse" as a derogatory way of referring to this movie's plot structure, and that's because it's a huge part of this movie's intricate thematic makeup (Rey, Kylo, Luke, and Snoke's part in all this comprises a second, equally important bit of that thematic makeup; a movie can have multiple themes).
I think it's pretty well in line with previous themes of the series actually (but there's enough difference I don't consider it a retread). Poe is reckless and that's bad (both Anakin and Luke dealt with this), Luke makes the same mistakes his masters made (though he becomes more bitter), and the series has dealt with morally gray characters (though perhaps not with grace) namely Anakin/Vader.

There's deviation, sure, but I don't think it's enough to call it a deconstruction.
Luke and Anakin's "recklessness" was never actually dramatized. In Luke's case, even, none of his recklessness was ever actually his fault, or ever led to any actual consequences. In fact, it was often rewarded. The one time it had significant repercussions - leaving Bespin to go to Cloud City - it was a specific trap set up by Vader. Not the result of a character flaw, but rather an evil scheme by the villain. Poe's mutiny here is entirely his own fault, and the consequences of his blabbing to Finn are grave and result in the deaths of over half the remaining Resistance. THE LAST JEDI specifically punishes the sort of heroism the previous films have often rewarded. It's a STAR WARS movie, but it is very much deconstructing a lot of the Star Wars tropes and character modes.
I thought that was actually pretty black and white, the war proffiteers and upper class were probably meant to be seen as straight evil.
The Star Wars universe has always operated on a binary axis of good and evil, with the Rebellion/Resistance and Empire/First Order on those opposing sides, respectively. War profiteers and a ruling class subjugating the lower classes have literally never factored into the world before; well, actually, they have, but they were given a free pass because the Kaminoans were making clones for the "good" guys, so it's fine that they're profiting from mass death and also creating mindless drone people with no agency whatsoever. But what is important is that these war profiteers as shown have no allegiance in this greater fight; they are simply out to seek profit from the highest bidders. Yes, they are unambiguously bad people. But this absolutely shatters that black and white dichotomy that Star Wars has long operated on, by suggesting that the very conflict between good and evil that has sustained the franchise is, in effect, an instrument of evil. The conflict itself is a bad thing, and that's a bold statement that no other Star War has made.
I see Finn and Rose working with the code-breaker they did instead of the one they were sent for as a metaphor for willingness to compromise one's morals.
Oh, but if they had gone with the war profiteer that Maz had suggested, their morals would be intact? Canto Bight is meant entirely as a shock to everybody's moral rectitude; the Resistance and First Order alike are lining the pockets of evil, amoral men. There is none righteous, not one. And the only decision to be made in an environment like that is to destroy it all, with a bunch of space horses running through the casino if you can. That, as well as the importance of the Resistance as a symbol to the oppressed peoples of the galaxy (and the importance of actually having a tangible reason for fighting rather than the previously-discussed-broken-moral-dichotomy), is the thematic rationale for this sequence, and that is why this sequence is absolutely, fundamentally crucial to the film.

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat
Queen Jenny the Mediocre
Clone Trooper
(id: neo222)
posted 01-28-18 06:41 AM EDT (US)     107 / 183       
I disagree, but that is a far more defensible and sensible position than "Canto Bight was redundant and unnecessary." It served a clear, important purpose in the broader story and theme of the film.
I don't mean thematically, which based on what people have said in this thread, I get why it was necessary and how it contributed to the theme of the film. I mean it was pointless in terms of the film's overall plot. You could take out the entire arc and it would not alter the outcome of the plot of the rest of the film in any way, shape or form. The themes mentioned could and should have been included in a story arc that actually mattered to the plot of the film. It just cheapens it imo.
I don't think this is supported by any of the actual data; the general audience loved this movie. It's a vocal minority of online Star Wars fans mad about it. The movie still made over $600 million domestic, for a multiplier of 2.8 - very strong, indicating consistent demand/positive word of mouth. It received an "A" CinemaScore, a metric evaluating enthusiasm of opening day audiences. The Rotten Tomatoes user score is 49%, but that's anonymous and entirely open with no actual polling method being used. It is thus susceptible to brigading, and I think that's exactly what happened there. The real test of audience enthusiasm will be Episode IX, and how well it performs on its opening weekend (opening weekends of sequels largely being referenda on the first film, with some of the marketing of the second film tying into that).

Disney, for what it's worth, seems absurdly pleased with THE LAST JEDI to the point that they've asked Johnson back to write and direct an entirely new trilogy. I think this is the new operating procedure going forward. Also, Disney pushing liberal agendas is hilarious, as they've been agonizingly slow to increase any of the representation in their films. They still haven't had a female superhero movie, their princess line is still regressive (even if the films themselves are often far better about this, as MOANA was), and even the suggestion of LGBTQ characters in their films gets swatted down quickly.

Poe is definitely gay though and I am HERE FOR IT
It's Star Wars. Plenty of people are going to see it because it's Star Wars regardless, it's a popular and well established series. Likewise plenty of people are going to go and see Episode IX for the same reason. Of the people who didn't like it, I doubt many of them disliked it enough to stop them seeing Episode IX.

As for it pushing the 'liberal agenda', I have nothing against that (and I know some people who dislike it because of it's 'liberal agenda'). When it comes to Star Wars (and life in general) I'm sexuality/colour/gender blind. Is Poe gay? Possibly. Do I care? Aside from a little bit of appreciation that the film is recognising that other sexuality exists and not everyone is straight, not really. It was like when I saw Star Trek and there was a passing reference that Sulu is gay. It was a case of "Oh, he's gay. Cool, good for him." and then promptly moved on because frankly, people can love who they want (of course, the fact that films are starting to propagate this idea is a good thing as hopefully it'll lead to changes in societal attitudes at large) and it makes no difference to me whether Sulu or Poe is gay, straight, bi or anything in between.

Anyway, I'm rambling so I'll shut up.

Edit: I've just had an unrelated thought. Why did the four resistance ships stay together? Okay, so the First Order could track them through lightspace, but I doubt they could track three ships going to three different destinations at once (with the cruiser or whatever it is keeping to the current flightpath). Based on the arrogance of the leadership of the first order, they'd probably ignore the other ships and keep focusing on the cruiser. Holdor could continue her plan of sneaking onto the planet, while the other ships could jump back at a later date. Would have saved so many lives. Also the resistance's resources are apparently so lacking that keeping three ships intact is not to be sniffed at.

I could move to a small town, and become a waitress...

[This message has been edited by Princess Jenny_chan (edited 01-28-2018 @ 07:41 AM).]

ISOmetric
Clone Trooper
posted 01-28-18 09:24 AM EDT (US)     108 / 183       
I don't mean thematically, which based on what people have said in this thread, I get why it was necessary and how it contributed to the theme of the film. I mean it was pointless in terms of the film's overall plot. You could take out the entire arc and it would not alter the outcome of the plot of the rest of the film in any way, shape or form. The themes mentioned could and should have been included in a story arc that actually mattered to the plot of the film. It just cheapens it imo.
Okay, so this comes from a different reading of how the film panned out, which we've already discussed. One the one hand, there's the opinion that stems from the film (in fact, the whole reason Holdo devised her plan) that if it wasn't sabotaged by Poe's plot, Holdo's plan would have worked: the First Order wouldn't have scanned for the tiny shuttles and would have kept chasing down an empty vessel. In this situation, the Canto Bight storyline does very much affect the outcome of the chase.

On the other hand, you have decided that the plan wouldn't have worked anyway, since surely the First Order aren't so arrogant as to not be constantly scanning the ship that they've been chasing for hours for smaller vessels leaving it? Okay, sure - Holdo, an experienced commander, had no reason to believe that they would, but of course you're entitled to hold that stance.

I do have one more thing to say though: the plan was working. The ships were leaving, undetected, and Holdo was getting away with it. It was only after Finn, Rose and the slicer were captured, and the slicer told them about the plan, that the First Order opened fire on the shuttles. To me, that's black and white: if Rose and Finn hadn't been off on Poe's quest and consequentially hadn't been captured, the story would have played out very differently. But of course, you're allowed to assume that the First Order wouldn't have been so arrogant as to allow some tiny ships to slip under the radar...
Why did the four resistance ships stay together? Okay, so the First Order could track them through lightspace, but I doubt they could track three ships going to three different destinations at once (with the cruiser or whatever it is keeping to the current flightpath). Based on the arrogance of the leadership of the first order, they'd probably ignore the other ships and keep focusing on the cruiser.
Hmm. I'm seeing a bit of contradiction here - they are likely too arrogant to keep following anything but the lead cruiser, but not arrogant enough that they wouldn't constantly be checking for small escape craft? Okay...

It's a long road that has no turning - It's never too late to mend.
The darkest hour is before the dawn, and even this war must end.


Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster - Widely considered the galaxy's best drink, the effects of which are like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick.

~\\*.. The Real McCoy ..*//~
Queen Jenny the Mediocre
Clone Trooper
(id: neo222)
posted 01-28-18 10:36 AM EDT (US)     109 / 183       
Arrogant is probably the wrong word. I mean kind of... focused I guess. Like, they would probably ignore the other ships which were relatively minor, and focus on the cruiser. I suppose that isn't arrogance as such.

I could move to a small town, and become a waitress...
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 01-28-18 11:42 AM EDT (US)     110 / 183       
I don't mean thematically, which based on what people have said in this thread, I get why it was necessary and how it contributed to the theme of the film. I mean it was pointless in terms of the film's overall plot. You could take out the entire arc and it would not alter the outcome of the plot of the rest of the film in any way, shape or form. The themes mentioned could and should have been included in a story arc that actually mattered to the plot of the film. It just cheapens it imo.
Agreed.
It's Star Wars. Plenty of people are going to see it because it's Star Wars regardless, it's a popular and well established series. Likewise plenty of people are going to go and see Episode IX for the same reason. Of the people who didn't like it, I doubt many of them disliked it enough to stop them seeing Episode IX.
Me, for example. I haven't genuinely loved anything that's come out of Star Wars since 2005 (*sigh* KotoR2 was such a flawed gem, but a gem nonetheless). But of the new films, I saw TFA on opening day, and I was only delayed on seeing TLJ because of schedule issues. I had to wait on R1 until it was on BluRay because I was horribly ill when it released; otherwise, I would have seen it in theater, too. All this while actively disliking Star Wars, so...yeah, Star Wars is going to have to degenerate a lot further before it stops being a cash cow.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
Xicon
Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 01-28-18 01:17 PM EDT (US)     111 / 183       
I don't mean thematically, which based on what people have said in this thread, I get why it was necessary and how it contributed to the theme of the film. I mean it was pointless in terms of the film's overall plot. You could take out the entire arc and it would not alter the outcome of the plot of the rest of the film in any way, shape or form. The themes mentioned could and should have been included in a story arc that actually mattered to the plot of the film.
Han, Leia, and Chewie landing on that asteroid creature in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK didn't actually matter to the plot of the film. You could take out that entire arc and it would not alter the outcome of the plot of the rest of the film in any way, shape or form.

Han Solo being frozen in carbonite didn't actually matter to the plot of the trilogy. You could take out that entire arc and it would not alter the outcome of the plot of the rest of the films in any way, shape or form.

The Canto Bight sequence does matter, for one thing; it's how the First Order learns of Holdo's plan, which leads to the starship crash, which leads to the showdown on Crait, etc. But for another, it's also a story about failure. The heroes undergo a last ditch effort to save the Resistance, knowing it's a longshot, and they fail. Yes, it doesn't actually make a difference (beyond the aforementioned alerting the First Order to the plan, which is a consequence of their failure), but that's the entire point. Their efforts were for naught, because they lost. That doesn't mean the sequence was irrelevant and shouldn't have been included, unless you're going to try and argue that the heroes should always win or else not include those plots where they lose.
It's Star Wars. Plenty of people are going to see it because it's Star Wars regardless, it's a popular and well established series. Likewise plenty of people are going to go and see Episode IX for the same reason. Of the people who didn't like it, I doubt many of them disliked it enough to stop them seeing Episode IX.
Which is why I specifically cited data points suggesting positive reception. Reading box office returns and drawing conclusions from them is basically just statistics, but you have to use the right statistics. And the right statistics are all pointing to a general audience that was particularly taken with THE LAST JEDI. I'd be happy to reevaluate that stance if you bring something other than anecdata to the table.
As for it pushing the 'liberal agenda', I have nothing against that (and I know some people who dislike it because of it's 'liberal agenda'). When it comes to Star Wars (and life in general) I'm sexuality/colour/gender blind. Is Poe gay? Possibly. Do I care? Aside from a little bit of appreciation that the film is recognising that other sexuality exists and not everyone is straight, not really. It was like when I saw Star Trek and there was a passing reference that Sulu is gay. It was a case of "Oh, he's gay. Cool, good for him." and then promptly moved on because frankly, people can love who they want (of course, the fact that films are starting to propagate this idea is a good thing as hopefully it'll lead to changes in societal attitudes at large) and it makes no difference to me whether Sulu or Poe is gay, straight, bi or anything in between.
It makes a lot of difference to a lot of people. It certainly meant a lot to me (and to several of my friends that I saw the film with) to see Sulu as a gay man with an ostensibly happy family. The feeling of being seen, of being told that one's existence and experience is real and valid, matters so much.

I'm not going to drag this thread into social theory, but I can't let the "sexuality/colour/gender blind" comment escape without pointing out how impossible that actually is (as everybody has subconscious biases based on those factors), how wrongheaded it is (as those factors exist in people and shape their experiences in the world), and how reductive to one's identity it is (as those factors are often inextricably connected to one's sense of self).

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat
Queen Jenny the Mediocre
Clone Trooper
(id: neo222)
posted 01-28-18 01:53 PM EDT (US)     112 / 183       
Okay, I'm just going to go now. All I'll say is that 'sexuality etc blind comment' just means I don't consciously judge people based on anything like that...

I could move to a small town, and become a waitress...
jssf1992
Clone Trooper
posted 01-28-18 02:28 PM EDT (US)     113 / 183       
. . .

Okay, this whole thing with Holdo, I'm just done with it. This has just become repetition at this point.

As far as deconstruction goes, I'll admit that this may have been what the writer intended, if so, I consider it a shallow attempt. It looks like it's doing something new, but it's only things that we can assume already happens, so there is no shock factor, no challenge to our sensibilities. When I stop to think about, and go further than skin deep, I find that the plot writing just doesn't work.

Currently listening to: Emil Karma
Tann and Reath part two progress
Completely finished: one
Only Narrative needed: five
In progress: two
To be made: six
Maegereg
Clone Trooper
posted 01-29-18 06:39 PM EDT (US)     114 / 183       
The real test of audience enthusiasm will be Episode IX, and how well it performs on its opening weekend (opening weekends of sequels largely being referenda on the first film, with some of the marketing of the second film tying into that).
Amusingly, I think the fact that I liked TLJ so much made me less likely to go see Episode IX in theaters on the opening weekend. The bar has been raised, and now a return to JJ Abrams does not fill me with eager anticipation.

Maegereg
,,,,,,,,,,Crusader for Commas,,,,,,,,,,
"404 errors scare me too..." -Cadre ][ "We outnumber them. Theoretically, we should win." -RESOME ][ "OD scares me. A lot. I'd sooner drop napalm on it than post on it." -Rotaretilbo
Free Kenan
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 01-29-18 07:54 PM EDT (US)     115 / 183       
Amusingly, I think the fact that I liked TLJ so much made me less likely to go see Episode IX in theaters on the opening weekend. The bar has been raised, and now a return to JJ Abrams does not fill me with eager anticipation.
In my case, Carrie Fisher's death has pretty much killed my interest in Ep9. It's clear she was meant to be central to 9's story, and without her...plus a return to Spectacle Abrams, like you mentioned...Yeah, I'm not feeling it.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
Xicon
Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 01-29-18 08:13 PM EDT (US)     116 / 183       
Nah, I'm still there. I'd much rather have another LAST JEDI and sorely wish Kennedy could have convinced Johnson to saddle back up for IX, but I'm still down with what Abrams is putting out. He's a very strong director with an uncanny sense of drama within a scene, even if he stumbles mightily on larger arcs and overall structure. I'm never bored watching an Abrams film, even as many of them crumble under a bit of scrutiny.

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 01-29-18 09:51 PM EDT (US)     117 / 183       
I have no doubt that IX will be interesting and engaging. Even a dumpster fire like Into Darkness is fun while you're in the chair... and that's solely down to Abrams' ability to shoot well and get his actors to excel.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 01-30-18 10:55 AM EDT (US)     118 / 183       
Oh, I agree with both of you: Abrams is good at taking a garbage script and some good actors and making something entertaining out of it. The problem is that the moment you step out of the theater, you do, in fact, realize that you've been enchanted by garbage.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
Queen Jenny the Mediocre
Clone Trooper
(id: neo222)
posted 01-31-18 11:14 AM EDT (US)     119 / 183       
I liked Star Trek

I could move to a small town, and become a waitress...
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 02-14-18 10:28 PM EDT (US)     120 / 183       
So anyone get the novel?

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
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