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Topic Subject:Star Wars Rebels
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Empire of Darkness
Clone Trooper
(id: Imperial Force)
posted 05-20-13 09:43 AM EDT (US)         
Star Wars Rebels

Interesting turn of events, and quite frankly, I'm glad to see Filoni involved.

Perhaps an older Ahsoka Tano will appear in this series.

I personally hope they try to take a more series tone with the series, but some how the doubt of that eats away more than the Jar Jar Binks episodes of Clone Wars ever could. The Disney ownership is giving us new movies, the partnership with EA will give us new games; the next couple of years will determine whether or not we actually wanted any of it.

Whoa.

[This message has been edited by Empire of Darkness (edited 05-20-2013 @ 09:46 AM).]

AuthorReplies:
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 05-21-13 10:33 AM EDT (US)     61 / 1043       
And we can also hate Kevin James Anderson. We can appreciate Karen Traviss' skill and incisive look at the black-and-white, Designated Heroes and Villains nature of SW while thoroughly hating her blatant hypocrisy in merely swapping Mary Sues.

And no one is telling you to convert. Just tolerate... as we shall tolerate your Zahn-love.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Crazed Ewok
Mectator
(id: The Crazed Ewok)
posted 05-21-13 10:36 AM EDT (US)     62 / 1043       
Whoa, I didn't think things would explode so much here. It's fine if you like Zahn. I'd say he's still probably my favorite Star Wars writer, with Outbound Flight being my favorite Star Wars book (last I checked), but for me that isn't saying much seeing as I'd easily put all of the Star Wars EU below almost anything else I've ever read, including other "pulp" sci-fi/fantasy like GRRM or Goodkind or whatever. Zahn is a good plot maker, but he's not good at characters, I think. I didn't realize how bad he was until Allegiance, which was a shitstorm of his favorite characters defying all expectations of reality. That book was so bad that it was what tipped me over the edge of disliking Star Wars. So, I can't read any of his stuff anymore without seeing his problems as an author creeping back in.

C hairman of the FMT, Mectator, and Seraph
r esident of Unity RPG, Anti-Heroes, and Indolents
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Cheapy the Hutt
Clone Trooper
posted 05-21-13 10:49 AM EDT (US)     63 / 1043       
...I thought you were an engineer.
I was until Calculus punched me in the dick. Then I changed majors and actually learned something.
I like you Cheapy. I really do... but I have to say, what's the difference between Zaarin rejecting the idea that Zahn is "good" and the flak people have taken from you and FA for liking ME3? Or Into Darkness? Or magical ponies? <_<
Except I actually like the first two things; I just acknowledge that they aren't perfect (Very much the opposite in ME3's case) and point out the flaws because I don't want people to perpetuate them. Here you guys were just sounding silly for trying to prove that a pulp piece isn't good by comparing it to bloody classical literature or hard scifi, as though they should be held by the same standards.

And the magical ponies can burn in hell!

Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 05-21-13 10:53 AM EDT (US)     64 / 1043       
Weber is space opera. Actually, Zahn does some EU in his universe. Like... fourth-string.
I was until Calculus punched me in the dick. Then I changed majors and actually learned something.
Oof. Tell me about it.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Moff (edited 05-21-2013 @ 10:57 AM).]

Flying Ace
Clone Trooper
(id: Lord Vader672)
posted 05-21-13 10:57 AM EDT (US)     65 / 1043       
And no one is telling you to convert. Just tolerate... as we shall tolerate your Zahn-love.
But then where will the majority of our banter go?

What was YOUR ME3 ending: Merge with Helios, Illuminati, or Tracer Tong?
"I feel like I just watched Dwayne Johnson beat a small disabled child. Except the disabled child is really an infant clone of Hitler. It's so painful to watch...but so glorious." - Cheapy
"The Rebels only have one rank: traitor." - Eothain
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 05-21-13 12:07 PM EDT (US)     66 / 1043       
I'm not saying Zahn is ****ing Shakespeare, I'm saying I enjoyed (Most of) his Star Wars books because they're exactly what I love about Star Wars: action space opera fantasy adventure.
I enjoyed Zahn well enough up until Outbound Flight as well, and if I had to choose a favorite Star Wars book it would either be Survivor's Quest or Heir to the Empire. Zahn has good ideas from time to time, has some interesting OCs (though he's not very good at other people's characters, except for Wedge), and is definitely one of the better Star Wars writers. I just don't happen to have a very high opinion of Star Wars as a genre.
Zahn is a good plot maker, but he's not good at characters, I think.
I'd mostly agree with this--though occasionally it reverses itself. I.e., some of his plots feel contrived, and he does occasionally make an interesting character (early Mara, Shada D'ukat, Thrawn Trilogy Thrawn).

I think the rant came about because it sounded like Cheapy and FA were asserting that Zahn is objectively good, not good for his genre or good compared to other SW writers. The last two statements I can agree with; the first one less so.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
Sevsherer
Clone Trooper
posted 05-21-13 12:52 PM EDT (US)     67 / 1043       
not good for his genre or good compared to other SW writers

Isn't that essentially saying the same thing? SW is kind of its own genre. It is both both Sci-fi and Fantasy, yet also neither Sci-fi nor Fantasy.
objectively good
Is there such a thing when entertainment is part of the goal of books(or music, movies, etc).
The entertainment value is entirely subjective, ruining one's ability to approach these topics from a purely objective standpoint.
Cheapy the Hutt
Clone Trooper
posted 05-21-13 01:09 PM EDT (US)     68 / 1043       
I think the rant came about because it sounded like Cheapy and FA were asserting that Zahn is objectively good, not good for his genre or good compared to other SW writers. The last two statements I can agree with; the first one less so.
How do you objectively define "good" when the only criteria is entertainment?

Zahn writes scifi pulp (At least for Star Wars). I enjoy reading most of his books, so I consider them "good".

Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 05-21-13 01:12 PM EDT (US)     69 / 1043       
Isn't that essentially saying the same thing? SW is kind of its own genre. It is both both Sci-fi and Fantasy, yet also neither Sci-fi nor Fantasy.
Sci-fantasy is a genre. Though SW is typically classified as "space opera" rather than "sci-fantasy"--either fits.
Is there such a thing when entertainment is part of the goal of books(or music, movies, etc).
The entertainment value is entirely subjective, ruining one's ability to approach these topics from a purely objective standpoint.
What I meant is the idea that Zahn is a good writer, regardless of who you compare him to. This is not the case. Zahn may look good compared to KJA or George Lucas, but his star dims immensely when compared even to other sci-fi writers like Orson Scott Card or Ursula K. LeGuin, to say nothing of writers of other genres. That is what I meant by objectively good. My words might have been better chosen.
How do you objectively define "good" when the only criteria is entertainment?
I disagree strongly with this statement, but I'll leave it with "See above."

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992

[This message has been edited by Zaarin (edited 05-21-2013 @ 01:13 PM).]

Sevsherer
Clone Trooper
posted 05-21-13 01:36 PM EDT (US)     70 / 1043       
So I guess this all brings up one question in my mind(Arguably, as an aspiring author, this question is always on my mind. lol): What makes a book good?
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 05-21-13 02:06 PM EDT (US)     71 / 1043       
1. Kevin James Anderson (or pseudonyms thereof) isn't the author.
2. SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Gen_Rhys_Dallows
Jedi Knight
posted 05-21-13 02:09 PM EDT (US)     72 / 1043       
What makes a book good?
Barbecue sauce.

ARMY STRONG
"Rhys wins this thread." - Tsavong Lah | "Gen freakin wins." - Jon Rolos | "...Any mercenary force trained by you, Dallows, would be all kinds of awesome." - Flying Ace
Expanding Fronts Mod
Cheapy the Hutt
Clone Trooper
posted 05-21-13 02:16 PM EDT (US)     73 / 1043       
I disagree strongly with this statement, but I'll leave it with "See above."
I should have phrased this better: when I say "good", I'm talking about in the context of scifi pulp fantasy whatever. Obviously other genres can and must be judged on other criteria, but I really can't think of anything else that Star Wars should be judged on because it doesn't seek to accomplish anything beyond entertainment value. It's a little silly to criticize a pulp piece for its lack of a message or its failure to address the social implications of its story when that was never the author's intent in the first place.

Flying Ace
Clone Trooper
(id: Lord Vader672)
posted 05-21-13 02:17 PM EDT (US)     74 / 1043       
Dammit, all I did was say I liked the Thrawn Trilogy and defended my stance about it. Had I know something like this would happen I wouldn't have said a thing

What was YOUR ME3 ending: Merge with Helios, Illuminati, or Tracer Tong?
"I feel like I just watched Dwayne Johnson beat a small disabled child. Except the disabled child is really an infant clone of Hitler. It's so painful to watch...but so glorious." - Cheapy
"The Rebels only have one rank: traitor." - Eothain
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 05-21-13 02:27 PM EDT (US)     75 / 1043       
...Actually, SW tends to fail hard when it tries to carry a message or have social implications.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 05-21-13 02:36 PM EDT (US)     76 / 1043       
What makes a book good?
A question that is also on my mind as an author, and not a simple one to answer. I seem to have been misinterpreted earlier; I don't feel a "message" per se is necessary for good art. I thoroughly believe in art for art's sake (though Plato's "truth and beauty" approach has its merits, as well). In my opinion, at least, the purpose of any art is to transmit emotion, and I judge art by its emotive quality. And I don't mean manipulative tear-jerking like Nicholas Sparks, but the ability to transmit genuine emotion (of any kind). Different authors tend to have their specialties--for example, I get a profound sense of loneliness from Jane Austen, wonder of a sad kind from Tolkien, horror (often with a cynical note) from Shakespeare, guilt from Dostoevsky (though my only sampling is Crime & Punishment, so... ). This at least is how I would define and measure art (incidentally, it applies to music, painting/drawing, sculpture, film, etc. as well as writing).

Of course, meditations on morality and philosophy and social issues, as brought up earlier, can't hurt, unless they're inserted for their own sake (*cough*Dickens*cough*Twain*cough*). Then they get preachy.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992

[This message has been edited by Zaarin (edited 05-21-2013 @ 03:57 PM).]

Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 05-21-13 02:54 PM EDT (US)     77 / 1043       
(*cough*Dickens*cough*Twain*cough*)
And just what is wrong with Shania's message?



New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 05-21-13 03:28 PM EDT (US)     78 / 1043       



Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 05-21-13 03:34 PM EDT (US)     79 / 1043       
Swing and a miss, Zaarin. My family is actually from Elmira.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 05-21-13 03:42 PM EDT (US)     80 / 1043       
And I frighteningly actually know where that is.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
jssf1992
Clone Trooper
posted 05-21-13 03:52 PM EDT (US)     81 / 1043       
Incidentally, I agree with Zaarin about the definition of art, and it is probably the best definition of art I have ever heard. That said, I find that emotional connection to the characters are the defining aspect for me, something which I find many "classics" fail spectacurally (I think that's spelled wrong) to deliver.

I still find some SW books to be good even ouside of SW books, though I will admit that I am biased towards the Thrawn Trilogy, due to it being something of a milestone for me growing up, Heir to the Empire being the first "no pictures" book that I had read to completion. (3rd or 4th grade, probably 4th since I'm dumb) However, even keeping that in mind, I still believe that it succeeded in being art (and rather successful), by the definition.

Currently listening to: Emil Karma
Tann and Reath part two progress
Completely finished: one
Only Narrative needed: five
In progress: two
To be made: six
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 05-21-13 03:56 PM EDT (US)     82 / 1043       
Yeah, I can't say I've ever felt an emotional response to Star Wars. I was too young when I saw the films, and it's just not there in the books. However, all this talk about Thrawn has made me feel like reading Agatha Christie (who I find infinitely better than Sir Arthur Conan Doyle). I did have an emotional response to Murder on the Nile and Mystery on Orient Express (which MLP parodied very well ); perhaps I should read And Then There Were None.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
jssf1992
Clone Trooper
posted 05-21-13 04:02 PM EDT (US)     83 / 1043       
Orient Express is one of the only books that actually lived up to reputation. I actually enjoyed that one, unlike all but one of my English class's required reading. I liked mystery a lot while growing up, along with Sci-fi. Strangly, as I've grown up, I've moved away from sci-fi more to fantasy.

Currently listening to: Emil Karma
Tann and Reath part two progress
Completely finished: one
Only Narrative needed: five
In progress: two
To be made: six
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 05-21-13 04:10 PM EDT (US)     84 / 1043       
Ah, fantasy is my first love, but I've found myself rather unable to write it--so I write sci-fi. :/

Probably the reason I'm unable to write fantasy is that I'm an obsessive perfectionist who won't be content with a fantasy world until I have it so detailed I could write a dissertation on symbiotic mushrooms, and I want to have around a hundred conlangs for said world.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 05-21-13 04:13 PM EDT (US)     85 / 1043       
Speaking of writing... has anyone seen Bando?

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 05-21-13 04:14 PM EDT (US)     86 / 1043       
You, Cray, and Carn are the only people I'm on FB with, and you are the only one regularly on FB...so no. I haven't. :/

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
jssf1992
Clone Trooper
posted 05-21-13 04:15 PM EDT (US)     87 / 1043       
Ah, fantasy is my first love,
You would have had a difficult time with my Senior Lit. teacher . . . she hated fantasy.

Hey, Moff . . . do you remember that other RPG you setting up?

Currently listening to: Emil Karma
Tann and Reath part two progress
Completely finished: one
Only Narrative needed: five
In progress: two
To be made: six

[This message has been edited by jssf1992 (edited 05-21-2013 @ 04:17 PM).]

Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 05-21-13 04:27 PM EDT (US)     88 / 1043       
Yes, I do.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
jssf1992
Clone Trooper
posted 05-21-13 04:43 PM EDT (US)     89 / 1043       
Kind of ironic that the thread ended with people talking about how it lasted a whole year . . .

Currently listening to: Emil Karma
Tann and Reath part two progress
Completely finished: one
Only Narrative needed: five
In progress: two
To be made: six
Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 05-21-13 05:41 PM EDT (US)     90 / 1043       
You would have had a difficult time with my Senior Lit. teacher . . . she hated fantasy.
Well, to be fair, I hate a lot of fantasy too--fantasy, even more than a lot of genres, seems to accumulate a lot of schlock.

Zaarin | Creator of Coruscant Life SE
deviantArt | New Campaign Coming Soon
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?

"Most forums derails into talking about memes. Here we derail into in-depth discussions about art. I like ours better."--jssf1992
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