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SWGB Heaven » Forums » Star Wars Universe » Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread (SPOILERS INSIDE)
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Topic Subject:Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread (SPOILERS INSIDE)
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Gen_Rhys_Dallows
Jedi Knight
posted 12-13-17 01:48 PM EDT (US)         
The Last Jedi is only a couple of days away from release. As such, a new thread has been opened for discussion of the film and surrounding materials, spoilers included. The previous thread opened by Keno is to remain spoiler-free. Violation of this will result in punishment as deemed appropriate by the moderation staff.

ARMY STRONG
"Rhys wins this thread." - Tsavong Lah | "Gen freakin wins." - Jon Rolos | "...Any mercenary force trained by you, Dallows, would be all kinds of awesome." - Flying Ace
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AuthorReplies:
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 12-13-17 05:07 PM EDT (US)     1 / 183       
I deem spoiling an insta-ban offense. <_<

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Flying Ace
Clone Trooper
(id: Lord Vader672)
posted 12-13-17 08:29 PM EDT (US)     2 / 183       
Just show the same courtesy that a (surprising) majority of people showed with The Force Awakens. Keep your trap shut until a couple weeks after the blu-ray release.

What was YOUR ME3 ending: Merge with Helios, Illuminati, or Tracer Tong?
"I feel like I just watched Dwayne Johnson beat a small disabled child. Except the disabled child is really an infant clone of Hitler. It's so painful to watch...but so glorious." - Cheapy
"The Rebels only have one rank: traitor." - Eothain
Queen Jenny the Mediocre
Clone Trooper
(id: neo222)
posted 12-14-17 04:05 PM EDT (US)     3 / 183       
The resistance has three ships and four hundred people? I've heard of plucky underdogs, but that's ridiculous.

I could move to a small town, and become a waitress...
ISOmetric
Clone Trooper
posted 12-14-17 07:42 PM EDT (US)     4 / 183       
And there's about thirty left with just the Falcon at the end!

It's a long road that has no turning - It's never too late to mend.
The darkest hour is before the dawn, and even this war must end.


Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster - Widely considered the galaxy's best drink, the effects of which are like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick.

~\\*.. The Real McCoy ..*//~
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Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 12-14-17 09:55 PM EDT (US)     5 / 183       
Best Star Wars of all time, idc idc idc don't ****ing @ me

that last shot is the best thing to come out of any Star Wars movie ever

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat
ISOmetric
Clone Trooper
posted 12-15-17 09:15 AM EDT (US)     6 / 183       
What with the kid? I did like it but it felt a bit hollow to me. The shot is good, nice broomstick use, but no one came to help them. As far as we know that kid is the only support the resistance has at this stage. If we had at least seen some evidence that that one child with a broomstick is not the only support that the resistance have, it would have been perfect, but as it stands I feel that it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth: "Hey, pretty much everyone is dead and no one wants to help us but this kid is inspired!" I'm not convinced. It's like the 'fire of rebellion' they've been talking about the whole time is... this kid. A little bit underwhelming.

But it is a really nice shot. Stirred some emotions in me before I thought about it too much.

It's a long road that has no turning - It's never too late to mend.
The darkest hour is before the dawn, and even this war must end.


Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster - Widely considered the galaxy's best drink, the effects of which are like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick.

~\\*.. The Real McCoy ..*//~
Flying Ace
Clone Trooper
(id: Lord Vader672)
posted 12-15-17 11:43 AM EDT (US)     7 / 183       
Well...best start my hunt. And it's not gonna involve Star Trek.

What was YOUR ME3 ending: Merge with Helios, Illuminati, or Tracer Tong?
"I feel like I just watched Dwayne Johnson beat a small disabled child. Except the disabled child is really an infant clone of Hitler. It's so painful to watch...but so glorious." - Cheapy
"The Rebels only have one rank: traitor." - Eothain
Queen Jenny the Mediocre
Clone Trooper
(id: neo222)
posted 12-15-17 02:39 PM EDT (US)     8 / 183       
I don't know, I'm not convinced by it. It's quite different to other Star Wars films in that it lacks the epic-ness of Star Wars because of the relatively small scale and there didn't seem to be an epic setpiece really. There was the battle at the beginning and the end, but they didn't scream epic, nor did any of the lightsabre fights. I mean, Episode I had Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan v Darth Maul plus the battle of Naboo, Episode 2 had the arena scene, episode 3 had the duel on Mustafa and so on. Episode VIII didn't really have that.

The interaction between Rey and Kylo was interesting and probably one of the high points of the film. Though I liked the fact Rey's parents were just random people, making Rey kind of... normal and not some kind of pre-ordained person, plus being a Skywalker would have been a bit cliche.

Still I may see it again, with re-adjusted expectations.

I could move to a small town, and become a waitress...
ISOmetric
Clone Trooper
posted 12-15-17 05:24 PM EDT (US)     9 / 183       
Interesting take. Personally I don't think I've ever associated Star Wars with epic-scale battles or events, so for me it wasn't missed.

Laura Dern's lightspeed jump tho...

It's a long road that has no turning - It's never too late to mend.
The darkest hour is before the dawn, and even this war must end.


Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster - Widely considered the galaxy's best drink, the effects of which are like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick.

~\\*.. The Real McCoy ..*//~
Flying Ace
Clone Trooper
(id: Lord Vader672)
posted 12-15-17 08:49 PM EDT (US)     10 / 183       
I liked the fact Rey's parents were just random people, making Rey kind of... normal and not some kind of pre-ordained person, plus being a Skywalker would have been a bit cliche.
But here's my thing. If this trilogy is supposed to be about the Skywalker family (something we were told at the series conception) then what the hell is the point of Rey being the main character?

Full disclosure, I have not actually seen the movie (ISO can attest to this). So while my spoiler knowledge is there, if at any point I do indeed get a fact wrong please correct me.

EDIT: And while we're talking about the point of something...WHAT WAS THE DAMN POINT OF SNOKE?!

What was YOUR ME3 ending: Merge with Helios, Illuminati, or Tracer Tong?
"I feel like I just watched Dwayne Johnson beat a small disabled child. Except the disabled child is really an infant clone of Hitler. It's so painful to watch...but so glorious." - Cheapy
"The Rebels only have one rank: traitor." - Eothain

[This message has been edited by Flying Ace (edited 12-15-2017 @ 08:50 PM).]

Gen_Rhys_Dallows
Jedi Knight
posted 12-15-17 09:51 PM EDT (US)     11 / 183       
"What was the point of _____?" seems to be the question for almost everything in the movie.

ARMY STRONG
"Rhys wins this thread." - Tsavong Lah | "Gen freakin wins." - Jon Rolos | "...Any mercenary force trained by you, Dallows, would be all kinds of awesome." - Flying Ace
Expanding Fronts Mod
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 12-15-17 10:38 PM EDT (US)     12 / 183       
Okay, saw it tonight. First, good news for Dallows with the (FO)Hvy Pummel.
The resistance has three ships and four hundred people? I've heard of plucky underdogs, but that's ridiculous.
Yeah. Definitely took issue there.
What with the kid? I did like it but it felt a bit hollow to me. The shot is good, nice broomstick use, but no one came to help them. As far as we know that kid is the only support the resistance has at this stage. If we had at least seen some evidence that that one child with a broomstick is not the only support that the resistance have, it would have been perfect, but as it stands I feel that it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth: "Hey, pretty much everyone is dead and no one wants to help us but this kid is inspired!" I'm not convinced. It's like the 'fire of rebellion' they've been talking about the whole time is... this kid. A little bit underwhelming.

But it is a really nice shot. Stirred some emotions in me before I thought about it too much.
Just like the end of Empire... three Y-Wings, a couple X-Wings, one frigate, and the Falcon.

Of course, the rest of the movie was more like Return of the Jedi instead of Empire. A group of 20-somethings I passed on my way out of the theater were saying, "Good movie, but it doesn't feel like Star Wars." And that's the bind: feel like Star Wars, get accused of aping the OT. Do something different (and... this didn't really), get accused of not being real Star Wars. YAY FANDOM!
Well...best start my hunt. And it's not gonna involve Star Trek.
Honor Harrington.
. I mean, Episode I had Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan v Darth Maul plus the battle of Naboo
All flash and no substance. Why are they fighting? Well, because one guy has a RED blade and wears black, and that means he's bad!
episode 3 had the duel on Mustafa and so on.
Which ran on for so long it got boring and laughable.
Laura Dern's lightspeed jump tho...
That was epic.
"What was the point of _____?" seems to be the question for almost everything in the movie.
Yeah, that. I'm okay with the "betraying the overconfident master" thing, though. Plus, it nicely shuts down those Snoke theories! "Who is Snoke? F**king dead! "

I like that the focus was tighter... which made the Canto Bight thing just feel like a distraction. I dunno. The direction was great, though. I see why Disney loves Rian Johnson. The writing definitely got too quippy and leaned hard on the fourth wall at times.

And that fake-out with Leia... I'll admit, my jaw fell there. And my eyes rolled when she floated herself back. Oh, plausible, yes. Badass, even. But the execution made her look like a Disney princess floating down or something.

...Which... I guess technically...

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
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Clone Trooper
posted 12-15-17 10:53 PM EDT (US)     13 / 183       
So what's your general feeling towards it then? I get the impression that you didn't hate it?

It's a long road that has no turning - It's never too late to mend.
The darkest hour is before the dawn, and even this war must end.


Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster - Widely considered the galaxy's best drink, the effects of which are like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick.

~\\*.. The Real McCoy ..*//~
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 12-15-17 11:16 PM EDT (US)     14 / 183       
"It's complicated." I do not... hate it, though. I just don't know if I like it.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Maegereg
Clone Trooper
posted 12-15-17 11:23 PM EDT (US)     15 / 183       
Overall, I think I liked this one a lot. By the standards of Star Wars, that is.

Things I liked, in no particular order:
- Poe's sexism destroys half the resistance and nearly gets the other half.
- While the movie had a lot of parallels to ESB, it didn't come across to me as an almost scene-for-scene remake (the way TFA did).
- I'm pretty sure the rebel bombers are the stupidest spaceship design in star wars, but I have to appreciate the WWII inspiration which gets back to the origins of spaceship combat in the series.
- The very tight focus helps mask the lack of worldbuilding.
- Rose and Vice Admiral Holdo are both great.
- Nihilistic Like has some great points. I'm a little sad they didn't have him go full Kreia, but that wouldn't really have allowed for his change of heart.
- Luke sarcasm, while completely out of character (at least in terms of OT like), was pretty great.
- The movie acknowledges that the Jedi (Luke Skywalker, even, who I'm pretty sure can do no wrong according to the OT) can screw up pretty royally. Ben turning to the dark side is pretty clearly largely Luke's fault. That's a wonderfully refreshing break from normal SW morality.
- Rey S Pumpkins!
- Ben is a slightly inscrutable, but his actions pretty much make sense, I think. His behavior certainly lines up well with everyone else's doubt that he'll turn back to the light.

Things I didn't like, also in no particular order:
- There's still no world-building going on. I believe I said this when TFA came out, but I'll say it again. SW has never done good worldbuilding. I had hoped that would change with TFA and/or Rogue One, but I guess not. At least I wasn't expecting much this time.
- Canto Bight, as Moff said, felt a bit throwaway, though I guess it gave a chance to explore Rose's character a bit.
- The movie sort of toys with the idea of whether Rey will turn to the dark side, but they only go so far as to make the audience think she's being tempted, rather than actually have her be tempted. On reflection at the end of the movie, it's pretty clear she was never actually particularly close to the dark side, and having the hero be so morally one-sided kind of undermines the more ambiguous theme of the movie.

- I don't have strong opinions about this one way or the other, but I thought it was interesting that the movie had such a strong animal right's message.
The resistance has three ships and four hundred people? I've heard of plucky underdogs, but that's ridiculous.
Yeah. Definitely took issue there.
I think this definitely could have been explained in a way that made sense, but it really wasn't. The lack of worldbuilding really shows here.
If we had at least seen some evidence that that one child with a broomstick is not the only support that the resistance have, it would have been perfect, but as it stands I feel that it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth: "Hey, pretty much everyone is dead and no one wants to help us but this kid is inspired!" I'm not convinced. It's like the 'fire of rebellion' they've been talking about the whole time is... this kid. A little bit underwhelming.
I don't know, nobody coming to the rescue felt pretty logical to me. If I'm the leader of a small rebel cell in the Outer Rim, and I learn that the resistance just lost all of its spaceships, most of its personnel, and is being besieged by a sizeable First Order fleet I would write them off. The most likely outcome if you go to help is that you just get yourself killed pointlessly.
But here's my thing. If this trilogy is supposed to be about the Skywalker family (something we were told at the series conception) then what the hell is the point of Rey being the main character?
I don't think you're wrong, but I think it's a little silly to grouse about the fact that the trilogy has a slightly different subject than was advertised.
Of course, the rest of the movie was more like Return of the Jedi instead of Empire.
I think pretty much just the scenes with Snoke and Rey. Everything else was far more like ESB than RotJ. The main character goes off to train with the wise older Jedi. The rebels have to evacuate their base. The rebels have to hold off an imperial assault on a planet covered by white stuff.
The writing definitely got too quippy and leaned hard on the fourth wall at times.
I disagree, I think the level of quips was perfectly acceptable.

Maegereg
,,,,,,,,,,Crusader for Commas,,,,,,,,,,
"404 errors scare me too..." -Cadre ][ "We outnumber them. Theoretically, we should win." -RESOME ][ "OD scares me. A lot. I'd sooner drop napalm on it than post on it." -Rotaretilbo
Free Kenan

[This message has been edited by Maegereg (edited 12-15-2017 @ 11:27 PM).]

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Clone Trooper
posted 12-15-17 11:42 PM EDT (US)     16 / 183       
If we had at least seen some evidence that that one child with a broomstick is not the only support that the resistance have, it would have been perfect, but as it stands I feel that it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth: "Hey, pretty much everyone is dead and no one wants to help us but this kid is inspired!" I'm not convinced. It's like the 'fire of rebellion' they've been talking about the whole time is... this kid. A little bit underwhelming.
I don't know, nobody coming to the rescue felt pretty logical to me. If I'm the leader of a small rebel cell in the Outer Rim, and I learn that the resistance just lost all of its spaceships, most of its personnel, and is being besieged by a sizeable First Order fleet I would write them off. The most likely outcome if you go to help is that you just get yourself killed pointlessly.
I think you're right - logically. But that doesn't exactly work with the theme of the underdogs managing to get through by supporting each other, as demonstrated by Rose with Finn. The Rebels aren't presented as cold and calculating, willing to cut losses and abandon people, especially when they've explicitly asked for help; their whole mojo is about sacrifice and putting their necks on the line to save their own people, even when everything has completely gone to shit. I think when the film is trying to convey an attitude it needs to do one or the other to make it work, because otherwise so much of what Leia says about hope just... isn't true. Not to mention, these Rebels include the resistance leader, and have already beaten the odds by decimating a much, much more powerful fleet. Maybe it's just me, but that's just the kind of showing to rally behind, regardless of the odds.

But that wasn't quite what I was getting at. The end of the film seems to present this child as what I would call (for the sake of the metaphor) an ember of the fire of rebellion which was ignited by those few fighters. My only issue is that one child is really not enough for me. If there was even an implication that Luke's stand has won over more than a few kids, I would be happy - I suppose, thinking about it, you could argue that the implication is there, since if these kids have heard the story, there must be others too. But at the time (and I'm still not convinced) it just feels hollow. Even if the other resistance fighters did behave logically, as you pointed out, I would have more hope for the future if we could see a bit more fire than one wean with a stick - if we caught a glimpse of other supporters of the resistance being proactive or even just spreading the word, that would be enough to show me that it's all been worth it. But what we see is just one kid, and we've got to imagine the scale of the resistance support for ourselves based on that. I felt like it wasn't really enough to end on, you know?

Also, that may not be very coherent - I'm sleep deprived.

I was also not put out by the quips. They were fine.

It's a long road that has no turning - It's never too late to mend.
The darkest hour is before the dawn, and even this war must end.


Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster - Widely considered the galaxy's best drink, the effects of which are like having your brains smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large gold brick.

~\\*.. The Real McCoy ..*//~
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 12-15-17 11:51 PM EDT (US)     17 / 183       
- Poe's sexism destroys half the resistance and nearly gets the other half.
Um, what?
- I'm pretty sure the rebel bombers are the stupidest spaceship design in star wars, but I have to appreciate the WWII inspiration which gets back to the origins of spaceship combat in the series.
Yeah.
- Nihilistic Like has some great points. I'm a little sad they didn't have him go full Kreia, but that wouldn't really have allowed for his change of heart.
- Luke sarcasm, while completely out of character (at least in terms of OT like), was pretty great.
Agreed on both points.
- The movie acknowledges that the Jedi (Luke Skywalker, even, who I'm pretty sure can do no wrong according to the OT) can screw up pretty royally. Ben turning to the dark side is pretty clearly largely Luke's fault. That's a wonderfully refreshing break from normal SW morality.
Going back to Kreiaism...
SW has never done good worldbuilding. I had hoped that would change with TFA and/or Rogue One, but I guess not. At least I wasn't expecting much this time.
ANH had decent worldbuilding.
- I don't have strong opinions about this one way or the other, but I thought it was interesting that the movie had such a strong animal right's message.
Heh, yeah. Flog your children, not your racehorses!
I think this definitely could have been explained in a way that made sense, but it really wasn't. The lack of worldbuilding really shows here.
I mean, the explanation is the ships are heavily automated and there just weren't ten thousand people at the Resistance HQ. But four hundred is... shockingly low for the cruiser alone, let alone the ships.
I disagree, I think the level of quips was perfectly acceptable.
There were a couple of moments where it undermined tension, in my opinion, instead of relieving it. It was all well-written and delivered. Also, "bastard" and "ass" are now canon.

However, "Godspeed, rebels" is cringey. And this film serial stuff is a problem. This has been the most eventful 72 hours in the history of the universe, I think.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Moff von Degurechaff (edited 12-15-2017 @ 11:53 PM).]

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Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 12-16-17 01:22 AM EDT (US)     18 / 183       
I've been litigating this movie in the BIRTH.MOVIES.DEATH. comments thread basically all day, and I think I'm one of the most vociferous defenders of it, and am hella burned out for now so I'm not gonna refute point by point, but I am going to sum up what I think the substantive disagreement here is:

THE LAST JEDI is a movie where every decision is rooted in theme and character over strict plot logic and obligations to the greater franchise. This is in stark opposition to literally every other STAR WARS movie ever made. This is why Canto Bight seems superfluous; because, plot wise, it is. But it's important because it shows Finn the consequences of his "I'm not a Rebel or a Stormtrooper" ideology: people who choose the middle path are enabling the First Order and the cycle of violence by omission. Hence the extravagant wealth and absolute apathy of all the characters we meet there. It also gives us Rose's key point: we win this by saving the things that matter to us, like the horse aliens that she had fond memories of. Did saving them matter at all? No. But that's what is important to her, and ultimately to the soul of the Rebellion.

Similarly this is a movie with an appropriate and beautiful disdain for much of the bullshit mystery box stuff that littered THE FORCE AWAKENS, and much of STAR WARS in general. "What was the point of Snoke?" Who cares, he doesn't matter. He's a big Sith-y baddie (I don't think they've explicitly labeled him as Sith, which is cool tbh, he's just a dark Force user) who took advantage of Kylo Ren's failure to keep the dark side of his nature at bay. Ren is the interesting figure here. He's been failed by his mentor and father figures consistently, and - unlike Rey, who has been similarly failed but has chosen to try and learn from that failure and be better than them - lashes out in petulant anger by murdering them. "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to." But it brings him neither peace nor wisdom. "What was the point of Rey's parents?" ****ing nothing, and that's amazing. Her parents are nobodies. She's who is important.

This movie is all about the failures of our parents, mentors, the entire generation before us. Those failures are inevitable. And there are two paths we can take to deal with that: we can accept those failures, recognize that they are imperfect people, but that doesn't mean they aren't good and wise in many ways, and thus still learn from them; or, we can reject them entirely and lash out, getting us nowhere and leaving us in perpetual arrested development. Rey takes the first path. Ren takes the last path. Poe flirts with the latter path with his mutiny against Holdo, but Leia puts him in his place and he comes to see the wisdom of Holdo's plan.

The bulk of the complaints I have seen, within this thread and without, are about rigid factual plot details, and that's so powerfully uninteresting to me. This movie is filled to bursting with interesting characters and interesting ideas and themes, and that is a massive departure from every single STAR WARS movie before it. And yet, the ideas are the most STAR WARS things imaginable: there is always hope so long as we are willing to learn from the mistakes of the past, and live to fight another day.

That's why that last shot is so resonant and fantastic: we've all been that child. All of us geeky ****s who have picked up any stick-like object and held it as a lightsaber have also looked up at the stars in awe, inspired by the stories of the Rebellion. And as long as that continues to happen, there will always be a new hope around the corner.

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat
Queen Jenny the Mediocre
Clone Trooper
(id: neo222)
posted 12-16-17 05:05 AM EDT (US)     19 / 183       
All flash and no substance. Why are they fighting? Well, because one guy has a RED blade and wears black, and that means he's bad!
Which ran on for so long it got boring and laughable.
True, I'm not saying they're necessarily good fights but at least there was a clear climactic moment. Of course RoTJ and ESB did that far better. I don't know, it felt more like Star Skirmish than Star Wars.

I agree Snoke is the most pointless character ever. I think his only purpose was to have been the person to turn Ben to the dark side. Was that necessary though? Couldn't it be possible that he turned to the dark side of his on volition and taught himself, using some of the knowledge gained while being taught by Luke? Especially if he is as powerful as Luke recognised.
I mean, the explanation is the ships are heavily automated and there just weren't ten thousand people at the Resistance HQ. But four hundred is... shockingly low for the cruiser alone, let alone the ships.
Also, if they had 30 transports... assuming all of the crew and passengers of the other ships were successfully evacuated, that would be about 13 people per transport. Seems a bit low. Could you even pilot a transport with that few people? Bare in mind plenty of those 400 people wouldn't be pilots or ship crew.
I think you're right - logically. But that doesn't exactly work with the theme of the underdogs managing to get through by supporting each other, as demonstrated by Rose with Finn. The Rebels aren't presented as cold and calculating, willing to cut losses and abandon people, especially when they've explicitly asked for help; their whole mojo is about sacrifice and putting their necks on the line to save their own people, even when everything has completely gone to shit. I think when the film is trying to convey an attitude it needs to do one or the other to make it work, because otherwise so much of what Leia says about hope just... isn't true. Not to mention, these Rebels include the resistance leader, and have already beaten the odds by decimating a much, much more powerful fleet. Maybe it's just me, but that's just the kind of showing to rally behind, regardless of the odds.

But that wasn't quite what I was getting at. The end of the film seems to present this child as what I would call (for the sake of the metaphor) an ember of the fire of rebellion which was ignited by those few fighters. My only issue is that one child is really not enough for me. If there was even an implication that Luke's stand has won over more than a few kids, I would be happy - I suppose, thinking about it, you could argue that the implication is there, since if these kids have heard the story, there must be others too. But at the time (and I'm still not convinced) it just feels hollow. Even if the other resistance fighters did behave logically, as you pointed out, I would have more hope for the future if we could see a bit more fire than one wean with a stick - if we caught a glimpse of other supporters of the resistance being proactive or even just spreading the word, that would be enough to show me that it's all been worth it. But what we see is just one kid, and we've got to imagine the scale of the resistance support for ourselves based on that. I felt like it wasn't really enough to end on, you know?
Good point, I pretty much agree with that. It doesn't make me feel like this uprising against the first order is bubbling beneath the surface, which given the next film is the last in the trilogy, you'd have thought at this point in the story arc it would be (e.g. the end of ESB where there is a whole rebel fleet floating past).

Anyway, it wasn't just any kid. It was a kid who used the force!!!!

I might see it again though, now that I know what to expect. Perhaps it'll grow on me.

I could move to a small town, and become a waitress...
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 12-16-17 11:57 AM EDT (US)     20 / 183       
You know, what I will give TLJ... I did not leave the theater wondering about my pet anime shows.

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Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
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Maegereg
Clone Trooper
posted 12-16-17 03:52 PM EDT (US)     21 / 183       
That's a lovely summary Xicon, thanks. That all makes sense to me. And I must say I really do appreciate the extent to which this movie dispensed with all of JJ Abram's stupid important backstory secrets (your "mystery boxes").

I'm not sure I would just confine it to be about learning from the failures of those who came before you, though - it's also about learning from your own failures. Poe, Luke and Finn all have to do that, and that's why I was a little disappointed that Rey didn't as well (by getting closer to the dark side).
- Poe's sexism destroys half the resistance and nearly gets the other half.
Um, what?
First, I content that it's Poe's fault that half the rebels fleeing the cruiser in transports got blown up. We see that Vice Admiral Holdo's plan would have worked perfectly had someone not tipped the First Order off to exactly what was going on, and that wouldn't have happened if they hadn't tried to shut off the tracking. If Poe had taken their plan to the Vice Admiral, she would have either shot it down (in which case they would have snuck off the cruiser undetected), or she could have helped them run the operation in a way that wouldn't have given the slicer the information he could turn over to the Empire.

So why doesn't he take the plan to the Vice Admiral? For some reason, he doesn't trust her. She's Leia's chosen successor, and apparently the hero of a battle that's big enough for Poe to have heard of her, but he starts doubting her the moment he actually sees her in person. When she (a Vice Admiral) won't share her plan with him (a Commander, and recently demoted for showing lack of judgment) he for some reason concludes that she's completely untrustworthy and only he alone can be trusted to save the rebellion. He doesn't explicitly say that he doesn't trust her because she's a woman, but he stops taking her seriously the moment he sees her in person and realizes she's "not what he expected."

You can probably convince yourself that something else is responsible if you want, but I think it's pretty clear what's going on.

Maegereg
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Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 12-16-17 04:44 PM EDT (US)     22 / 183       
No, no no no no. We're not dragging culture war bullshit into mindless space fantasy. This was not a harsh critique of mansplaining or a "timely film for the Trump era."

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Queen Jenny the Mediocre
Clone Trooper
(id: neo222)
posted 12-16-17 04:52 PM EDT (US)     23 / 183       
I'm sorry, I'm with Moff here. The view point that Poe is somehow sexist and doesn't trust the admiral simply because she's a woman is BS. He would have had the same attitude regardless of the gender of the admiral. You know it, Moff knows it, I know it. The whole freakin' planet knows it. Why? Because that kind of thing, the gung-ho hero disobeying authority, is straight out of the standard cinematic textbook. Heck that's the same premise in Rogue One. Difference is, it works out (well, not for Jyn personally but overall).

I could move to a small town, and become a waitress...
Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 12-16-17 06:52 PM EDT (US)     24 / 183       
Hey, here's a fun one. So, in TFA, the thermal oscillator is really well-armored and the X-Wings can't dent it. Has to get blown open by Han and Rey and friends, which leads to Han's death.

Where the hell were the bombers for that?

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology

[This message has been edited by Moff von Degurechaff (edited 12-16-2017 @ 06:54 PM).]

Gen_Rhys_Dallows
Jedi Knight
posted 12-16-17 09:42 PM EDT (US)     25 / 183       
They hadn't reached Tech Level 4 yet.

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Kousoku Senkan Moffgou
Moff
(id: Moff Yittreas)
posted 12-16-17 11:22 PM EDT (US)     26 / 183       
I think they've regressed tech levels now.

New RPG Coming Soon | Purveyor of the Poi | Weeaboo Brony Conserative - The Ultimate Foe to the Internet
Lord Sipia: "THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SIPPY IS EXCLUDED! EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR SANITY" | Also Lord Sipia: "...Of course. Prepare the butter."
"Moff's anime diatribes/photos are infinitely less annoying than legion's communism, so I don't complain." - Azzie, proving that cute girls driving tanks >> Left-wing ideology
Xicon
Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 12-17-17 00:40 AM EDT (US)     27 / 183       
All art is political, and while this film is hardly as overtly political as something like THREE BILLBOARDS OUTSIDE EBBING, MISSOURI, it is absolutely a commentary on the Trump era. It's a movie about generational conflict, a movie where the protagonists belong to a faction literally called "the Resistance," and is textually about resisting a fascist regime and maintaining hope in times of great loss and despair.

I don't think I agree with Maeg that Poe's subconscious sexism is a textual thing, I definitely agree that it is at the very least a subtextual reading of that entire arc, and it matches up almost exactly to the lived experiences of women in positions of even some power.

Art is only mindless if one chooses not to think.

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat
ISOmetric
Clone Trooper
posted 12-17-17 04:55 AM EDT (US)     28 / 183       
I certainly do agree with Maeg to a degree. That line, "not what I expected," is very telling. A definite indication of sexism? Maybe not, but I think there's only so many things you can take from that. Very much open to alternative interpretations of that line from anyone who disagrees. Before he sees here there's no indication that he would treat her with any animosity. In fact, and I don't quite recall, but I seem to remember that he treated her with a kind of reverence (because she's a hero) until he saw her, at which point his face just falls. Like I said, open to other interpretations of that, but it's pretty damning.

And concerning the bombers, can they make hyperspace jumps or would they need a carrier?

It's a long road that has no turning - It's never too late to mend.
The darkest hour is before the dawn, and even this war must end.


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Emissary of the Prophets
Clone Trooper
(id: Admiral Zaarin)
posted 12-17-17 11:21 AM EDT (US)     29 / 183       
All art is political
Without any specific comment on TLJ because I haven't seen it yet, this is nonsense. Some art is political, all art has something to say, but not all art is political. To me this seems like a very American way of viewing the world, where all ideology, philosophy, and religion is "politics."

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[This message has been edited by Emissary of the Prophets (edited 12-17-2017 @ 11:21 AM).]

Xicon
Clone Trooper
(id: jaxbrandon)
posted 12-17-17 01:50 PM EDT (US)     30 / 183       
It's an old Orwell chestnut, so it's definitely not an American way of viewing the world. But certainly interesting that you'll let political realities shape the way you view a claim like that. Almost like how the political realities of the time inevitably and invariably shape all art produced during it.

Here's another wonderful Orwell line: "The opinion that art should have nothing to do with politics is itself a political attitude."

xicon | black lives matter.
leave the mourning to the morning, yeah pain can be killed
with aspirin tablets and vitamin pills
but memories of hope and of glorious defeat
are a little bit harder to beat
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